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  1. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by hadouken View Post
    Tough being Chinese in the Olympics. When the Chinese win, they're accused of cheating. When the Chinese lose, they're still accused of cheating.
    What? Chinese cheat? NEVER!!! Chinese lie? NEVER!!! Chinese be anything less than honorable? NEVER!!! LOL...

    One should learn to ignore the obvious as in:



    LOL...

    One of things that I've personally understood about the PRC is her similarity to a cheating wife; she swears to be faithful and promises never to sleep around on you again, getting angry if you should even question her about it, talking about trust, yada yada... that is, until you catch her at it again, the next time.

    The reason that so many people don't believe that PRC sports are clean is the same as it was historically with East Germans sports; they cheated and even as you caught them at it, will cheat some more. Why? Because the value of their 'winning' was always considered politically more important and valuable than your having caught them at it. Hence, there is a national philosophy to cheat and then do the Shaggy:



    ie. deny, deny, deny...



    Hence, instead of celebrating the awesome accomplishments of a 16 year old swimming prodigy, many are pulling out the PRC's dirty laundry from their past infidelities. Trust, indeed is a very fragile thing. IMHO, it would take about 20 years of clean no doping results from their winners to remove the taint that they themselves repeatedly earned during the 90's. If every one of their winners today comes back (in all subsequent tests) clean for this big O, then maybe the perception of their integrity will be better in 2016.

    Of course, there are a whole slew of people who are now waiting for the other shoe to drop; ie. the finding of dope evidence a few years from now. To be honest, I'm holding my breath over Phelps too; time will tell. But frankly, this really isn't an anti-China thing; if one really wanted to get a sense of sports or the Olympiad's dirty history, then explore the long record of cheating in the Big O; there is a trail of evidence all the way back to Ancient Greece. Unfortunately, the power in the need to win can and does pull not only participants, but many nations too, over to the dark side.
    Last edited by ralphrepo; 08-02-2012 at 07:47 PM.

  2. #56
    Dan
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphrepo View Post
    What? Chinese cheat? NEVER!!! Chinese lie? NEVER!!! Chinese be anything less than honorable? NEVER!!! LOL...

    One should learn to ignore the obvious as in:



    LOL...

    One of things that I've personally understood about the PRC is her similarity to a cheating wife; she swears to be faithful and promises never to sleep around on you again, getting angry if you should even question her about it, talking about trust, yada yada... that is, until you catch her at it again, the next time.

    The reason that so many people don't believe that PRC sports are clean is the same as it was historically with East Germans sports; they cheated and even as you caught them at it, will cheat some more. Why? Because the value of their 'winning' was always considered politically more important and valuable than your having caught them at it. Hence, there is a national philosophy to cheat and then do the Shaggy:



    ie. deny, deny, deny...

    Hence, instead of celebrating the awesome accomplishments of a 16 year old swimming prodigy, many are pulling out the PRC's dirty laundry from their past infidelities. Trust, indeed is a very fragile thing. IMHO, it would take about 20 years of clean no doping results from their winners to remove the taint that they themselves repeatedly earned during the 90's. If every one of their winners today comes back (in all subsequent tests) clean for this big O, then maybe the perception of their integrity will be better in 2016.

    Of course, there are a whole slew of people who are now waiting for the other shoe to drop; ie. the finding of dope evidence a few years from now.
    Perhaps, but even if China didn't cheat (i.e. no doping etc), another angle why some condemn China has to do with their ethics.. I mean, yes, the goal of the Olympics is to bring home as many medals as possible for one's country, but it seems like China will do anything to get as many as they can. Many athletes have full time jobs, and participate in the Olympics as a side thing. However China breeds and raise kids from a young age, with the specific goal of winning gold:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...st_read_module

    Also, they would even hide critical news such as family deaths to ensure that the athlete isn't distracted from the goal of winning gold:

    http://now.msn.com/family-keeps-secr...ins-gold-medal

    Though this is my own interpretation of what the Olympics represent: Olympians should embrace the Olympic spirit, the drive to be better than the best athletes from other countries, and most importantly, advocate for great sportsmanship. Over the course of the 2012 Olympics, there are plenty of times where athletes have a more political agenda, discarding what it means to be an Olympian. I'm not going to go in depth into the badminton scandal, but that's one of them.

    Let's assume countries aren't cheating. However the tactics these countries are taking just for the purpose of winning gold goes against the Olympic Spirit.

    //end obsessive idealist

  3. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Perhaps, but even if China didn't cheat (i.e. no doping etc), another angle why some condemn China has to do with their ethics.. I mean, yes, the goal of the Olympics is to bring home as many medals as possible for one's country, but it seems like China will do anything to get as many as they can. Many athletes have full time jobs, and participate in the Olympics as a side thing. However China breeds and raise kids from a young age, with the specific goal of winning gold:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...st_read_module

    Also, they would even hide critical news such as family deaths to ensure that the athlete isn't distracted from the goal of winning gold:

    http://now.msn.com/family-keeps-secr...ins-gold-medal

    Though this is my own interpretation of what the Olympics represent: Olympians should embrace the Olympic spirit, the drive to be better than the best athletes from other countries, and most importantly, advocate for great sportsmanship. Over the course of the 2012 Olympics, there are plenty of times where athletes have a more political agenda, discarding what it means to be an Olympian. I'm not going to go in depth into the badminton scandal, but that's one of them.

    Let's assume countries aren't cheating. However the tactics these countries are taking just for the purpose of winning gold goes against the Olympic Spirit.

    //end obsessive idealist
    I absolutely agree. This was another reason why the Olympiads needed to be made open to professional sportsmen too, as the level of sponsorship that politically driven nations poured upon their athletes (for all intents and purposes) rendered their existence that is no different than that of a professional. One has to realize that the Olympics isn't about sports, it's about people and ideals. Some people are honest and hold their ideals above all else, even life itself (shout out to Socrates?), some however fall onto a scale of lesser distinction. All are human, but insofar as integrity goes, its the separation of the wheat from the chaff that is the conundrum.

  4. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphrepo View Post
    I absolutely agree. This was another reason why the Olympiads needed to be made open to professional sportsmen too, as the level of sponsorship that politically driven nations poured upon their athletes (for all intents and purposes) rendered their existence that is no different than that of a professional. One has to realize that the Olympics isn't about sports, it's about people and ideals. Some people are honest and hold their ideals above all else, even life itself (shout out to Socrates?), some however fall onto a scale of lesser distinction. All are human, but insofar as integrity goes, its the separation of the wheat from the chaff that is the conundrum.
    YES.

    On a side note, I was just informed that there are a group of athletes without a country to represent. They participate for the sport.





    My heroes. LOL.

  5. #59
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    lol saw that at the parade watta bunch of gs


  6. #60
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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-stronger.html

    ^China gene doping is totally plausible, but some of the major countries just sound mad that they no longer dominate.
    Wit is educated insolence.

  7. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jelly View Post
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-stronger.html

    ^China gene doping is totally plausible, but some of the major countries just sound mad that they no longer dominate.
    It's possibly true that some countries may be mad for losing dominance, but the issue in question is an ethical one. Doping, gene tampering, and training programs since youth solely for the purpose of winning gold is materialistic, unsportsmanlike, obsessive and stupid.

  8. #62
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    Hong Kong

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    YES.

    On a side note, I was just informed that there are a group of athletes without a country to represent. They participate for the sport.





    My heroes. LOL.
    It certainly shows that politics can sometimes impede upon sports, or vice versa.

    For those that don't know what's going on with this, here's an explanation: LINK

    Here's another comment on the PRC's medal chase methods: LINK

    ...And check out this guy: LINK

    Last edited by ralphrepo; 08-03-2012 at 03:11 AM.

  9. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphrepo View Post
    Here's another comment on the PRC's medal chase methods: LINK

    Thank you for this link. This is exactly the kind of mindset that worries me.

  10. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Thank you for this link. This is exactly the kind of mindset that worries me.
    One of the less recognized Olympic related phenomenon is the exodus of great coaches from communist (or former) nations that then wind up helping western nations compete. Case in point; the recent win by Gabby Douglas for the women's gymnastic all around highlighted her and her family's sacrifice so that they could avail themselves of a great coach, Liang Chow. Before him, was Bela Karolyi. If people want to make political hay from these Olympiads, then one cannot ignore that coaches, many of them former athletes themselves, often look westward for better opportunity. If the Olympics are to be considered as proxy warfare between nations, then the distancing by their best talent into the fold of their former adversary's camp can be seen as nothing less than traitorous betrayal. This would leave any astute observer wondering as to the whys of such a move.

  11. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by shinobi View Post
    that's sad.
    and that's an understatement.

  12. #66
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    Special award for crying fencer

    still sucks for her




    please use the forum when requesting movies/music : do not pm me! noobs specifically..

    IM BACK

  13. #67
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    Hong Kong

    Quote Originally Posted by hadouken View Post
    One of basic principles that science rigidly adheres is to first assess whether a test itself can rightfully be called a legitimate process in determining the validity of an event. Else, the results obtained would be considered questionable and little faith would be placed in those outcomes.

    In this case, even the FIE admitted that their technical process for this match was shown to be scientifically inadequate or not up to the task. Thus, I personally believe that the entire contest should have been thrown out and the whole match, from start to finish, be replayed. This "special award" is rather just a nonsensical way of the FIE admitting that they were caught unprepared. Because of it, they were not only embarrassed at not being able to properly score a match, but worse yet, decided to summarily sweep the whole thing under the rug and just arbitrarily declare a winner in order to save face.

    IMHO, the loser here is the FIE; in doing this (first making the error of scoring arbitrarily and then highlighting and burnishing it into Olympic history by giving a "special award") they lost just about any legitimacy over the sport of fencing

    Oh, and a note to Dan: Here's another news video about the less than honest, ends justified the means type of dealings (in the pursuit of medals) in the Leninist styled athletic training that you were talking about: LINK
    Last edited by ralphrepo; 08-04-2012 at 01:43 AM.

  14. #68
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    Perfect...Bravo Wu Minxia...a true legend flawless dives...

  15. #69
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    China takes medal lead back

  16. #70
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    Usain Bolt!!!!!!!! Still Fastest Man on the Planet


  17. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphrepo View Post
    Oh, and a note to Dan: Here's another news video about the less than honest, ends justified the means type of dealings (in the pursuit of medals) in the Leninist styled athletic training that you were talking about: LINK
    That video demonstrated a DISGUSTING trend. Fuck medal count leads. When countries win medals in a Leninist fashion like China and Soviet Russia, a thousand gold medals are worth less than a piece of turd.

    I would rather win 4th place than win tainted gold.

  18. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    That video demonstrated a DISGUSTING trend. Fuck medal count leads. When countries win medals in a Leninist fashion like China and Soviet Russia, a thousand gold medals are worth less than a piece of turd.

    I would rather win 4th place than win tainted gold.
    The commentator (Gordon Chang) got it right; this isn't a representation of Chinese culture, but rather of 'communist' culture under the PRC. In an effort to show that their political system is "better" than any in the west, they put on sham displays of prowess, using an end justifies the means approach that absolutely ignores the needs of the one. If an individual doesn't perform to perfection, then they're summarily cast aside, a replacement quickly found. Every Leninist camp trained athlete understands that he's expendable.

    If one genuinely compares the communist (in this case, the PRC) athletic system versus that of the west (meaning for all intents, the US), one has to also look at the numbers that they have to work with in terms of raw talent. Whilst the PRC for example, identifies and then trains potential from a very early age; the US system involves only an individual's narrow desire and dedication for a sport. Further, the US has about one quarter of the raw numbers to work with, as the PRC's population base is nearly quadruple that.

    So politically, it can be said that with only one quarter of the raw potential, the US can go toe to toe with China vis a vis medal counts. Of course, this 'thumb in the eye' statistic isn't lost to the Chinese Communist Party; they certainly see this as an indictment of their system. Hence, they try ever harder to produce more medal winners at any cost (to the system, the players, their own economy, et cetera), just for crowing rights or the ability to say "...if we get more medals, then that must mean that our way of governance is better than your's." Of course, in the final analysis, it's a political goal to show its own people (the Chinese) that their leadership style is more legitimate.

    Hence, the Olympiads are not sport or games for the PRC, but a costly political tool used purely to burnish the rule of the party. In this case, if I were an athlete in China, I would rather not even have to play this game, much less worry about which level of medal I get.


 
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