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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    You make a compelling argument, and I do agree that the guilt-of-association fallacy probably plays a role in our opinion of the matter. But even if this fallacy is a factor in people's opinion of China's winnings, it doesn't fully justify China's method or reasoning for winning the medals.



    As you said, China's tainted integrity has to do with merchandise imitation, which falsely leads to the non-Chinese perception of "China have only been known to cheat". Therefore the Chinese athletes must be cheating. However, this association fallacy is stemmed by the ignorance of those who believe in it. Needless to say, you and I both know this statement is flawed.

    And since we both know it's false, we can look at the real facts. China (as of yet) as not been proven to have cheated. However, we've seen plenty of articles and videos that demonstrates China's obsession with gold medals. I guess my point is, perhaps Yi's win did get married with this association fallacy through no fault of her own. But regardless of whether or not this is the case, the argument remains that even prior to Yi's win, the method in which China trains its athlete (perhaps Yi included) from youth is highly unethical to Western standards. And this argument (from what I can see) is void of the association fallacy.

    I realize what I just wrote is unstructured and confusing. I'm writing what I'm currently thinking, from my phone lol.
    Well, yes and no; China has "...not been proven to have cheated" in this particular set of games. However, from the BBC article, it also pointed out that during the 1990's, the PRC had thirty two positive cases identified within the ranks of their swimmers alone (not considering other sport categories) and one confirmed case less than a year ago. ie. the feeling is, not only had the PRC historically cheated but it seems they're continuing to do so. So in essence, despite the article being directed towards Ye's individual defense, it also firmly established the background as to why there is so much suspicion to begin with, of PRC athletics as a class, and why this perception will continue to persist.

    Also, I firmly agree with your assessment that Chinese methodologies aren't justified by their winnings; in fact, nothing, from a western sports rationale, would justify their methods. But IMHO, one has to remember their rationale for winning; again, it frankly isn't at all about sports, but politics. If they come out on top, it allows them convincing political mantra to feed their own masses; that they're the best country in the world owing to the stellar leadership of their party. In other words, they're not winning medals, per se; they're winning arguments over which political system (their's versus others) is better. This argument isn't public, but rather it resides deep within the hearts of their population; that is the arena that they're really playing to. This facet is the entire basis and raison d'etre for Leninist sports; athletes aren't looked upon as sportsmen, but considered by the state to be soldiers of ideology. Hence, any brutalizing boot camp, where individuals are considered expendable fodder, is perfectly acceptable as they solely exist for the defense of the party.

    Last edited by ralphrepo; 08-12-2012 at 03:47 AM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphrepo View Post
    athletes aren't looked upon as sportsmen, but considered by the state to be soldiers of ideology. Hence, any brutalizing boot camp, where individuals are considered expendable fodder, is perfectly acceptable as they solely exist for the defense of the party.

    You know, I think you've just identified a point that strikes an extremely difficult chord with me. The whole reason I watch the Olympics at all is because it's inspiring to see the best of the best representing their country, displaying values that inspires us, motivates us to be better. These athletes earn the title of Olympians not just because of their mastery of their art, but due to the values they instil into some of us. I think this is why watching that video you linked was particularly difficult.

    People seem to have forgotten the meaning of:

    Sportsmanship
    Honour
    Dedication
    The drive to be the best, not for material rewards like medals, but for the self.
    Pride
    And most importantly, valour.

    Call me obsessive, sappy, idealistic, outdated, dreamer or antiquated, but I think the code of knighthood and chivalry is an extinct art. And it's a shame.

  3. #93
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    Women Diving...Wu Minxia is the best...none in just finished 10m prem dives like her.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    You know, I think you've just identified a point that strikes an extremely difficult chord with me. The whole reason I watch the Olympics at all is because it's inspiring to see the best of the best representing their country, displaying values that inspires us, motivates us to be better. These athletes earn the title of Olympians not just because of their mastery of their art, but due to the values they instil into some of us. I think this is why watching that video you linked was particularly difficult.

    People seem to have forgotten the meaning of:

    Sportsmanship
    Honour
    Dedication
    The drive to be the best, not for material rewards like medals, but for the self.
    Pride
    And most importantly, valour.

    Call me obsessive, sappy, idealistic, outdated, dreamer or antiquated, but I think the code of knighthood and chivalry is an extinct art. And it's a shame.
    I read an article yesterday in the New York Times that detailed just about all the things you mentioned, Dan. The silver lining if you will, is that the article stated that even the Chinese people themselves, have begun to question this 'medal at all costs' attitude, especially after Liu Xiang pulled up lame again. There seems to be a lot of agreement amongst fans that Liu was forced to run even as he knew he was already injured because the state demanded that of him; in so doing, he injured himself further. LINK

    On another note, did anyone else see the France v Spain, Punch To Groin clip?:


    Source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...als/index.html

    Damn, Basketball violence, LOL... I wonder how Portland is going to receive Batum when he goes home to the Trail Blazers after the Big O? Personally, I think that Batum should have been immediately disqualified from the games for this sort of juvenile shit. In post game interviews, he even seemed to gloat about it. LINK Of course, this goes straight to the point of the seemingly poor officiating that all venues in London 2012 seems to be having all around. LINK
    Last edited by ralphrepo; 08-08-2012 at 10:52 PM.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphrepo View Post
    I read an article yesterday in the New York Times that detailed just about all the things you mentioned, Dan. The silver lining if you will, is that the article stated that even the Chinese people themselves, have begun to question this 'medal at all costs' attitude, especially after Liu Xiang pulled up lame again. There seems to be a lot of agreement amongst fans that Liu was forced to run even as he knew he was already injured because the state demanded that of him; in so doing, he injured himself further. LINK
    Last week, shortly after winning her third Olympic gold medal, the Chinese diver Wu Minxia was told that her grandparents had died years earlier and that her mother had been diagnosed with cancer. Ms. Wu’s father explained that the family preferred to lie to his daughter all those years rather than risk harming her Olympic prospects.

    “We accepted a long time ago that she doesn’t belong to us,” the father, Wu Yuming, told a Shanghai newspaper. “I don’t even dare think about things like enjoying family happiness.”

    Like many Chinese athletes, Ms. Wu had been plucked from her family as an adolescent and sent to live at a state-financed sports academy, where training is grueling. Many athletes do not see their families for years. Last week, after Lin Qingfeng claimed a gold medal in men’s weight lifting, his father told reporters that he did not recognize his 23-year-old son, whom he had not seen for six and a half years, until he heard his name mentioned on television. “It’s been a long time,” Mr. Lin’s mother said, “since he’s had a meal at home.”
    Had to admit I nearly choked on vomit.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphrepo View Post
    ouch..that's too obvious went at him with a fist lol

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Had to admit I nearly choked on vomit.
    As an aside from all this, what I've found to be interesting (perhaps tellingly so) about this sports proxy nationalism is the total lack of non Chinese in any of the PRC teams. While foreign teams often have ethnic Chinese in them (with many performing to spectacular results), I wonder if there would ever be a chance of a non Chinese participant being fielded by the PRC?

    Quote Originally Posted by shinobi View Post
    ouch..that's too obvious went at him with a fist lol
    Indeed, IMHO he should have been not only penalized but ejected and disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct. A foul is an inadvertent physical contact that is penalized; this was an outright physical assault. It has no place on the court as well as no place ever in any Olympiad. I think what Big O officials should start considering is that behavior like that displayed by Batum should be grounds for having a team disqualified from the contest. In other words, he won't just ruin his own chances, but his nation's. After all, he is there as a representative of his country; if this is how he wants people to see (in this case) France, then IMHO, the entire French team should be blamed for his willful unsportsmanlike actions.

  8. #98
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    Is anyone trained in WTF (World Taekwondo Federation) style Taekwondo? It might be due to my ITF (International TKD Federation) mindset, but today's TKD matches are as brutal and painful to watch as seagulls sparring.

    Can anyone explain to me why these TKD "experts" can't seem to perform basic fundamental techniques? Such as hands-the-fuck-up in guarding stance? Or perform a single side kick against someone who likes to do continuous turning kicks (which by the way these guys love to do)? Or hell, use their frigging hands to block? Are their World TKD rules against hands?

    This isn't Taekwondo, it's boxing with feet.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphrepo View Post
    Indeed, IMHO he should have been not only penalized but ejected and disqualified for unsportsmanlike conduct[/B]
    i didn't see that game till late last night but def surprised he was still playing after what he did ...if that was NBA automatic ejection and 3-5 games suspension

    importantly that game was close he fucked his country up by that bone headed play

    he doesn't have a history of being dirty so i give him the doubt that it was a "heat of the moment" action

    FIBA can suspend him for future games but thats months down the road...he wouldn't care lol

    Portland gave him a 50million dollar extenstion this summer...almost big as Lin's contract

  10. #100
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    Hong Kong

    Quote Originally Posted by shinobi View Post
    i didn't see that game till late last night but def surprised he was still playing after what he did ...if that was NBA automatic ejection and 3-5 games suspension importantly that game was close he fucked his country up by that bone headed play he doesn't have a history of being dirty so i give him the doubt that it was a "heat of the moment" action FIBA can suspend him for future games but thats months down the road...he wouldn't care lol Portland gave him a 50million dollar extenstion this summer...almost big as Lin's contract

    One of the things that really gets my ire up about these guys is they're acting like the American tourist who thinks it's OK to behave like shit in a foreign country. That is, someone who does bad things when visiting another country, things which he knows he will never get away with at home; but he does it anyway just because he thinks he can get away with it elsewhere. If say, Jeremy Lin did some crap like that I would lose all respect for him, not as a player but as a human being. Hence, Batum may make his big bucks; in the final analysis, he's become just another uncouth asshole with money.

    On another note, the funniest news out of the Olympics this week is the sudden disappearance of seven athletes from Cameroon. There is rampant suspicion that they plan to defect to any other country in order to have better training and logistic support as Cameroon is not only one of the poorest countries in the world, but it's sports facilities make abandoned tenements look inviting, LOL... LINK Talk about a slap in one's own face; the representatives a nation sends to an international event, all flee at their first opportunity as any place else in the world is better than home.

    But of course, then there's the Yahoo Sports Blog called "Fourth Place Medals" There's an article that details all the players who got sent home thus far; I would personally refer to them as:

     

    Which athletes were sent home in disgrace?
    By Pauline Vu
    Fourth-Place Medal
    Thu, Aug 9, 2012 4:50 PM EDT



    No Olympics is complete without certain elements: glorious victories, stunning upsets, heartbreaking losses… And athletes kicked out of the Games. These Olympics saw the dismissal of several competitors, with the use of performance-enhancing drugs as the main culprit. People were also kicked out for being openly racist, tweeting inappropriate things, purposely trying to lose, and, in the case of one athlete, getting so drunk in public that he looked like he wet himself.

    Click on the links below to see what infractions the following athletes committed that had them packing up early:

    Victoria Baranova
    Nick D'Arcy
    Kyung Eun Jung
    Tameka Williams
    Kenrick Monk
    Alex Schwazer
    Xiaoli Wang
    Gijs van Hoecke
    Ivan Tsikhan
    Yang Yu
    Dimitrios Chondrokoukis
    Amine Laalou
    Greysia Polii
    Diego Palomeque
    Jung Eun Ha
    Hysen Pulaku
    Ha Na Kim
    Nicholas Delpopolo
    Michel Morganella
    Paraskevi Papachristou
    Meiliana Jauhari
    Luiza Galiulina
    Min Jung Kim

    Source: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympics-fourth-place-medal/athletes-were-sent-home-disgrace-205008104--oly.html



    And finally NBC never forgets to provide stimulating family entertainment from these games:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bcf_1344586580
    Last edited by ralphrepo; 08-11-2012 at 10:20 AM.

  11. #101
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    so...diving....
    US 1st, China 2nd, and GB 3rd.......
    china was like so devastated,
    US should be happier they got gold...!! but the diver was really modest i think
    and GB was like wow yay we got a bronze........O_O.....

    mixed reactions......totally not liking BBC commentary...so biased imo
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  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixgirl16 View Post
    so...diving....
    US 1st, China 2nd, and GB 3rd.......
    china was like so devastated,
    US should be happier they got gold...!! but the diver was really modest i think
    and GB was like wow yay we got a bronze........O_O.....

    mixed reactions......totally not liking BBC commentary...so biased imo
    Needless to say, I was very surprised that US edged out the PRC on this one. Qiu Bo, the Chinese diver was heavily favored to win, at one point his skills being afforded deferential nicknames such as 'diving machine' or 'robot' by adversaries during the lead up to the finale. Moreover, the US diver, Boudia, less than a decade ago, was afraid of heights and reportedly 'petrified' at having to even climb up the 10 meter tower, much less to dive off of it. I'm sure that millions of Chinese fans were probably sitting there slack jawed, stunned for a few moments that their man was nudged off the top roost. LINK

    Disappointingly, the Canadians, who haven't had much luck in this series with only one gold; had to heartbreakingly give back a bronze as one of their relay men in the 4x100's apparently stepped on a line, disqualifying their third place win. LINK




    Usain Bolt (above), the electrifying Jamaican runner that has lit up the track scene both during Beijing and London, had an embarrassing moment when, after winning the race for the gold, was forced to hand back his relay baton (threatened with disqualification) which he presumably wanted to retain as a souvenir. He later claimed that British officials did finally have a change of heart and allowed him to keep it. LINK
    Last edited by ralphrepo; 08-11-2012 at 09:58 PM.

  13. #103
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    so much fail in this olympics

    anyways i found an interesting comment on some random forum

    List of athletes found doping by nationality:

    China 11

    Germany 21

    Great Britain 27

    France 27

    United States 140
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_in_athletics
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cases_in_sport
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Olympic_medals




    please use the forum when requesting movies/music : do not pm me! noobs specifically..

    IM BACK

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by hadouken View Post
    so much fail in this olympics
    anyways i found an interesting comment on some random forum
    List of athletes found doping by nationality:

    China 11
    Germany 21
    Great Britain 27
    France 27
    United States 140
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...s_in_athletics
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cases_in_sport
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Olympic_medals
    In your above statistics, do they relate to the number of doping cases only in this particular Olympiad or are they supposed to be an aggregate of all historical Olympic numbers? I find the China listing to be odd at first blush; it seems to be amazingly conservative. Also, what forum did you pull this from, aside from the wiki links is there a source link available?




    Also, in a clear act of attempting to politicize the game venue, should the ROK medalist be disqualified; should his whole team be disqualified? LINK

    Of course, ROK officials stated that the political banner came from a 'spectator' and the Korean player took it up during the heat of the moment. I personally find this aspect to be rather suspect as the ROK's President Lee MyungBak, two days ago, on the eve of this Olympic match against Japan, 'coincidentally' visited the disputed island to vehement protests by Japan. That frankly, is a little too much coincidence for me. And even if it were totally innocent happenstance, I think that at a minimum, the player should automatically be disqualified and made ineligible for any award. Moreover, the IOC should seriously consider disqualifying the whole ROK team of their bronze win, as it was their member who clearly violated long established Olympic rules against use of the venue for overt political reasons. My view is, that while some athletes may risk personal punishment, they may not be so eager to do so, if it meant shaming their entire team or their whole nation. In this case, if Park JongWoo (the cited player) knew beforehand that he would be simply barred from the awards ceremony, he may have thought that that is a small cost to pay for his being now seen as a national hero (as the issue has extreme resonance with the ROK public). Plus he and his team still get to keep their medals; for him, it's literally a win-win situation. But, it would have been a whole different set of risks if he knew beforehand that both he and the team would be disqualified and stripped of any award. If that were the case, his act would not be seen as a source of national heroism; but rather as a national shame. Hence IMHO, to prevent further or future political hijacking of the Olympic venue, the IOC should come down hard and disqualify the entire ROK team for the politically motivated stunt of their member. I have no proof, but it is my personal suspicion and opinion that this was politically orchestrated by the highest levels of the ROK government, to use this world wide media opportunity to showcase their land dispute against Japan.



    For those that aren't aware, the issue of using the Big O for political demonstrations is not new, neither are the punishments. The most famous was the 1968 'Black Power' salute by US track stars T.Smith and J.Carlos. LINK

     

    2 Black Power Advocates Ousted From Olympics
    U.S. Team Drops Smith and Carlos for Clenched-Fist Display on Victory Stand
    U.S. Team Suspends Smith and Carlos
    By JOSEPH M. SHEEHAN
    Special to The New York Times


    Mexico City, Oct. 18--The United States Olympic Committee suspended Tommie Smith and John Carlos today for having used last Wednesday's victory ceremony for the 200- meter dash at the Olympic Games as the vehicle for a black power demonstration. The two Negro sprinters were told by Douglas F. Roby, the president of the committee, that they must leave the Olympic Village. Their credentials also were taken away, which made it mandatory for them to leave Mexico within 48 hours. The decision to dismiss the athletes was made early this morning after the committee had been summoned into a conference by the executive committee of the International Olympic Committee. Members of the United States committee, who were divided on the question of whether action should be taken, emphasized that the dismissals were by edict of the international unit. The I.O.C. had indicated, it was said, that it might bar the entire United States team from further participation if the athletes were not disciplined.

    The action obviously tempered the behavior of Negro American athletes who were involved in victory ceremonies today. In accepting their medals for their one, two, three sweep of the 400-meter run, Lee Evans, Larry James and Ron Freeman wore black berets, but in no way conducted themselves in a manner to incur official wrath. Ralph Boston, who finished third in the long jump, went barefoot during his portion of the ceremonies and said: "They are going to have to send me home, too; because I protested on the victory stand." He conceded that the suspension of Smith and Carlos was "an action the Olympic Committee had to take." But he maintained that "the way to have done it was to sit down and talk with Carlos and Smith and hear their side of the story before taking some punitive action against them."

    In the same ceremony, Bob Beamon went to the platform for his gold medal in the long jump with his sweatsuit legs rolled up to display black socks. He said he also was "protesting what's happening in the U.S.A." In a statement issued early this morning, the United States Committee said in explanation of its action: The United States Olympic Committee expresses its profound regrets to the International Olympic committee, to the Mexican Organizing Committee and to the people of Mexico for the discourtesy displayed by two members of its team in departing from tradition during a victory ceremony at the Olympic Stadium on Oct. 16. "The untypical exhibitionism of these athletes also violates the basic standards of good manners and sportsmanship, which are so highly valued in the United States, and therefore the two men involved are suspended forthwith from the team and ordered to remove themselves from the Olympic Village. "This action is taken in the belief that such immature behavior is an isolated incident. However, if further investigation or subsequent events do not bear out this view, the entire matter will be re-evaluated.

    A repetition of such incidents by other members of the United States team can only be considered a willful disregard of Olympic principles that would warrant the imposition of the severest penalties at the disposal of the United States Olympic Committee." This statement was read by Roby to Evans, James and Freeman before they took the mark in the 400. Evans and Freeman had been identified with Smith and Carlos as black power advocates. After their grand slam, the athletes, smiling, accepted their medals from John J. Garland of Los Angeles, one of the three United States delegates to the I.O.C. While three United States flags were raised on the flagpole atop the stadium rim and the Star Spangled Banner was played, they removed their berets and stood erect facing the flags. On arriving at the victory platform and on leaving it, they did raise clenched fists, but they were smiling and apparently not defiant as they did so.

    Clenched Fists Raised

    At Wednesday's 200-meter victory ceremony, Smith, the winner, and Carlos, who finished third, wore black scarves around their necks and black glove (Smith on his right hand and Carlos on his left). After receiving their medals from the Marquis of Exeter the president of the International Amateur Athletic Federation, who was an Olympic 400-meter hurdles champion in 1928, Smith and Carlos raised their gloved hands with fists clenched and kept their heads deeply bowed during the playing of the national anthem and raising of the United States flag in their honor. This demonstration produced a mixed reaction among United States officials and members of the United States squad, black and white. Some hailed it as a gesture of independence and a move in support of a worthy cause. Many others said they were offended and embarrassed. A few were vehemently indignant. Press emphasis of the incident, which actually passed without much general notice in the packed Olympic Stadium; undoubtedly had much to do with the vigorous I.O.C. reaction and the U.S.O.C.'s rather reluctant compliance with the order to discipline the offenders. Among other things, Smith and Carlos were quoted by news services as saying they would not have accepted their medals if the presentation had been made by Avery Brundage, the 81-year-old president of the I.O.C. As it happened, Brundage was not even in Mexico City that day. He had gone to Acapulco to watch the Olympic yachting competition.Ruby said today he had tried to arrange a meeting with the two athletes, but had been rebuffed. No attempt will be made to deprive them of their medals, he added, because "we have no right to take away their medals."

    The 24-year-old Smith, a rangy, long-legged athlete who stands 6 feet 3 inches and weighs 185 pounds, is from Lemoore, Calif., and is a student at San Jose State University, where Harry Edwards, who initiated the black power manifestations in athletics, was a teacher last year. Smith is the listed world-recordholder for the 200-meter and 220-yard dashes, both around a curve and on the straight. Carlos, 23, was born and raised in New York, but now lives in San Jose, and also attends San Jose State. He is 6-4, weighs 200 pounds and wears a beard. A brilliant performer, but more erratic than Smith, he has a pending application for a world record for the 200 meters of 19.7 seconds. Smith's listed mark is 20 seconds flat. His winning Olympic time was 19.7 seconds.

    Source: http://www.nytimes.com/learning/gene.../big/1018.html

    Last edited by ralphrepo; 08-12-2012 at 09:04 AM.

  15. #105
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    lol it was a interesting games to say the least...so much controversy i hope they get their act together for the next games in Rio.

    Spice Girls to close out the games...excited for that

  16. #106
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    can't believe i overslept for the USA / Spain gold game.

    definitely looking forward to the closing ceremony though!

  17. #107
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    Hu Ya Dan - Future Dive Queen

    Just accidentally saw this at youtube:
    Those dives...so perfect

    The funny of her


    Too bad she did not overcome her mental power, otherwise Gold was her's.
    So 2016...is gold for her and Wang Hao and Chen Ruolin...not sure the big sister(Wu Minxia) will contest again .

  18. #108
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    Great olympics. Weird to see this thread so slow.


 

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