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Discussion in 'Philosophy & Religion' started by CrazyMoFo, May 22, 2012.
It's a bit long, but it hits the nail right on the head! All Xtians should see this.
=\ The first video was fascinating, but I kind of feel like you're specifically targeting Christians by saying "All Xtians should see this".
It's good information, but one should not offensively target a group as such, but rather let people of any group make their own educated decisions. One should have the right to follow a religion, regardless of how ridiculous other may view said religion. I may ridicule Scientology, but those who choose to follow Scientology and pay millions for membership should still have their decisions respected, regardless.
I would also merge this thread with the previous thread, as they are all videos in general; no need for separate threads.
The reason I say xtians is because this video is about their religion. Not exactly targeting or trying to offend them. The info is legit and I just want them to be aware of them. Because I bet 90% of them didn't know most of the facts that are brought up in the video. Because 90% of them don't actually read the bible. If that's offending then I"m guilty but not my main intentions. I just want people of all religion to be educated in the religion they blindly follow.
The other video is for the general public that can apply to all religion or non religion that's why I posted in different threads.
I understand, and though I do agree to some extent, the OP post essentially isolates the Christians, and thus, the post is targeting them. You may not have any ill-intentions, but the wording will cause a different response, unfortunately.
I'm just trying to say that the way your posts are structured connotes a sense of offence, such as "you want them to be aware", "... the religion they blindly follow". Some may consider those as insults.
I may agree with the facts of the video, but I disagree with the way the video was framed towards Christians as the audience. Your unspoken intentions is essentially rephrased "You are wrong, I am right, I want you to know the truth and you need to stop blindly following religions". That may not be your intention, but the choice of words have that associated meaning.
I may disagree with Scientology wholeheartedly, and have the same disagreements with it as you have with Christianity, but if there are those who wish to follow Scientology, regardless of whether or not they have been shown the truth, then let them be. My role is not that of a prophet. I don't carry the responsibility to tell people their religions are wrong, and inform them of correct facts.
Because, to me, that sounds exactly like the job description of Christian Priests. The material/content may be different, but the approach is identical, to the letter.
edit: And wtf is wrong with me, yet another essay. I need to learn to shorten my posts.
well you do know there are a lot of dedicated Christians around the world and a lot of good Churches as well even if they consist of a small congregation. People can't base everything on this video because it only focuses on the negative things. Christians believe because of what they experience and their relationship with God, a video will not change their minds. I do feel bad for those who believe in mainstream preachers like benny hins or joyce meyers and they pocket millions from people who want to dedicate their savings to God which isn't the way. There are preachers like Jaeson Ma who may have a celebrity status somewhat but he is not a millionaire or live in a mansion or drive a luxury car while flying in private jets. The best Churches and best way to be Christian are through a small congregation and being involved and helping people. Think about missionaries who go to third world countries and risk their life preaching the Gospel. A lot of people may think it is stupid but even though a lot of times they fail, some missionaries do reach others and change on'e life. What I want to say is that if this people will change a Christian's perspective of being Christian then they should not claim Christian status in the first place.
First off, I won't be able to satisfy everyone in what I post. There is going to be someone offended regardless how I structure my post just because of the nature of this video. I can be as nice as an angel and those who are offended easily will still be offended.
I don't think what I've said is offensive at all because that's how I really feel about most religious people. That's why I said 90% of them are like this. They are not aware of ANY of the things mentioned in the video or they do and refuse to acknowledge it. They have been indoctrinated at a very young age and taught to believe in blind faith.
I also don't feel like I'm being offensive because I was one of them for 20+years so I know exactly how they feel. That's why I want to point things out and make them want to seek out the truth. Don't just believe in something just because your parents believes or because of the way you were brought up. Once they have done the research and asked the questions, and they still wish to follow their faith, then so be it. At least they know the history behind it and if it still makes them feel good, I will respect your believes. As said in the past I have many xtian friends and my wife is a devoted catholic and have much respect for them. So just because I don't agree with their believes don't make me hate them or want to offend them.
Let me tell you about one of my encounters with a xtian group I bumped into in Chinatown. These were teens between the age of 14-18, there were 7 of them and they sat right next to me and my wife at a cafe. They just finished going to sunday school and each one had a bible in their hands. They prayed before their meal and was talking about God the whole time. I politely interrupted and asked them why do they believe in God. I got the generic answer, because god is love and they want to go to heaven etc......I told them I used to believe in god but I no longer do. Immediately one of them accused me that I have not really found god, because if I do I would never want to leave his kingdom. I asked them do they believe the bible is the lords word and is every single thing written in the bible law? They all agreed and said yes. I started to point out things in the bible like the stuff in the video. Some got really quiet, some didn't believe the stuff i was saying was actually in the bible and looked it up (you should've seen their faces). To make a long story short, they were stumped, they all said they have to go back and ask their preacher/pastor for answers. The funny part is, at the end they all wanted me to pray with them because they want to rescue me.
A few months later at the same cafe. A kid came up to me and asked me if I remember her. I told her I didn't and she reminded me of our conversation. She told me she no longer belongs to a church and said thanks to me for opening up her mind and gave her the courage to ask questions. Apparently, they went back to church and ask the questions I've asked and she wasn't happy with the response or the answers she got. She left the church a few weeks after and never turned back. Her other friends stayed but she said she is still friends with them. I still see her once in awhile and she is always kind and respectful. I was only able to change one out of 7 kids and helped her realize there is more out there to learn. I guess that experience is part of the reason why I like to challenge religion. And yes, if not done right it's offensive. But it is also just as offensive when they try to shove their believes into society and on me.
Oops....I pulled a Dan with a long essay!:naughty:
Do you really feel proud of yourself converting Christians into non-Christians and showing disappointment towards kids or teenagers when challenging their religion? It's like telling them Santa is not real and they will not get presents. Some people like going to church not because they fully believe but the environment is welcoming. Think about those who went to a Church and then knowing people care for them instead of constantly feeling peer pressure regarding to drugs, gangs, thefts, violence, and etc.
Kdotc - I'm not saying all xtians are bad there are many good xtians doing good things, and good churches doing good things. But do you really need god to do good things? There are plenty of secular charities out there doing good things too......one even tried to donate half a mil and the organization rejected it because it was coming from a secular group. How ridiculous is that?
I agree, a video shouldn't be able to change one's faith or religion. And I'm not expecting that to happen. I'm sharing the video so people can go about and do even more research and learn about their religion, give them something to think about and not just believe what's told to them in church. How many people you know say they are xtian and they can't even recite the 10 commandments? Go ask your xtian friends to recite the 10 commendments, I bet 7 out of 10 will fail.
Like I said, if after they have studied and research their religion and still feel it is necessary for them to continue on the believe. That is fine and I have respect for them. I just don't like how I was tricked into believing it growing up. And if you come from a good home with the right up bringing and have good friends and family around you, you wont be peer pressured into drugs, gangs, thefts and violence. You shouldn't have to go to church to learn to be good. And believe me I know, I went to churches from 6 to 28 years old. I have friends that goes to church and be a good xtian, once out of church they do all sorts of ungodly things, like drugs, gangs, theft and violence, and on the weekend they confess their sin and does the same crap all over. So if you think going to church changes that, that's wishful thinking!
Kdotc - Here's a recent video of a small congregation you suggested that people should join. This just happen on May 13th 2012. Do you want your children going to this church where they teach hate instead of love?
read full article here
^ there are a lot of "bad" churches and you are only pointing them out so i really dont care about them
but there are those who do all those things and end up not doing them because they started going to church. People take time to change and you can't expect all Christians to be perfect because they are not. You keep assuming if someone is Christian then they should be perfect and know everything and follow the Bible
here's some stuff at a local church
I never assume all xtians should be perfect, because according to the bible Jesus is the only perfect xtian. of course there are bad and good christians i just dislike those who are hypocrites. When I refer those who goes to church and does ungodly things, there are just as much if not more good people in the church who are genuinely good folks! matter in fact I believe i have lots of friends who are in this category, but it still doesn't make a talking snake or a talking burning bush real. Nor does it justify that all those who don't believe should burn in hell, just because a book written 2000 years ago says so.
In the end what I think is that as long as religion teaches good to people and those who true believer are good people then it doesn't matter what they believe in.
Hahaha I was just going to say. Anyway, I'll try to keep it short this time. No guarantees. edit: Nevermind, I failed to keep it short.
But IMO I think you're missing the point. Who are we, as individuals, to have the right to sway the opinions of others, no matter how ridiculous their beliefs may seem and how righteous ours may be? I don't care if they're 80 years old and believe in the Tooth Fairy. If it makes them happy, so be it. Whatever floats their boat, as long as they are happy. Like the beliefs of Atheism states, we only live once, make the best of it and be happy.
Secondly, I'm sure you're aware of the expression "Don't confuse me with facts". Well it goes both ways. We have had an individual in PA (whose name I shall not state), who was an avid Christian follower. You two would make for a wonderful MMA match, but that's beside the point. If you dig up old posts, you'll find that his method is to consistently state quotes from the Bible, to justify his arguments. He was, however a great individual, as he didn't attempt to convince non-believers. Though he disagreed with non-believers, he respected the views of non-believers.
If I were to take his posts, exchange his arguments to that of Science, swap his evidence with that of Science, and add a touch of "my mission is to make religious believers see the truth", it'll work perfectly. Thus, you would pass for an excellent Christian missionary, minus the Christian beliefs. I am not trying to insult you here, I'm trying to show you that the way you are approaching this is no better than that of those you sorely despise. It's like you have a personal vendetta against all religions, because of the fact that they outcasted you. Though I do not know the feeling of being outcasted as you have, I still believe that this vendetta is ruining what should be most important to you: your happiness.
Also, I'm not sure if you are a fan of Stargate, but I see the odd resemblance to these fellows, from _both_ sides of the conflict:
In the end, like I've said before, it's not the debate material (fictitious or scientifically proven evidence) that is the root of corruption and ignorance. It is you, it is me, and it is every being that populates this world, no exceptions. Not even the Dalai Lama. That dude goes crazy when it comes to the topic of Sino-Tibetan conflicts. As our fellow PA member RalphRepo aptly put it: "We [our own human natures] are our own worst enemy".
Looks like I failed to keep it short again. Sorry. And I might just end my argument here. If I were to continue, I would fall prey to my own human nature of wanting to win this argument, similar to the way I lost my cool in the Apple vs Android thread.
If you choose to continue your approach, though I may disagree, I will respect that as your right as a human being. If it makes you feel accomplished, "whatever floats your boat".
Have a wonderful day, Sir. It has been truly educational.
edit: Grammar and spelling
LOL Dan....nice try keeping it short! I get what you are saying, but I also think you guys miss the point. I'm not attacking xtians, I'm just showing them what's wrong with their religion and want them to realize what they are doing is wrong and hurting our society. Most of you may not agree that that is happening but it is. As much good religion is trying to be weather xtians, islam or whatever, it is doing more harm than good. Just think how many wars in the past as well as present are in the name of religion. I agree there are many things we can learn from religion and it's great that folks are doing good with what they learn, but they should keep it within their group and not try to change everyone who don't agree with them to live their way of life by passing laws to favor their religion.
Also you assume I am not happy because I'm atheist and I have been outcasted, which also means you assume I have no love. That would be a wrong assessment of me. I assure you I'm very happy with my life. I have a lovely family, a CATHOLIC wife and Xitians family members up the ying yang. They all love me for who I am and respect my atheism as I respect their faith. In real life, I am not AS confrontation in this topic. I tend to keep it to myself unless they start it first. I tend to throw in a jab or a sucker punch here and there on religion, but it never gets out of hand. Matter in fact they often ask for my atheism point of view in religion so they can hear what non believers think. It's usually a very educational experience on both sides. So NO I do not have a personal vendetta on religion. My beef is with those bible thumpers who think they are better than others or those who preaches their religion and yet know nothing about their religion. Those are the ones I have a vendetta for. And yes I have a handful of those in my life too.
Kdotc - I watched the video of Jason Ma. I don't call his experience any different then other people who likes to preach and spread the good word. Some just got it in them to be good at speaking or be a kick ass motivation speaker. And he is very good at it. Although I see his experience differently than those who are believers. For example, he said his mother almost aborted him but then she saw a church friend and the church friend told her it's a boy and she think it's a sign from god to keep the baby and that's why he is here now doing the lord's work. While that sounds all good and dandy and praise the lord. You can also see it as guilt. She saw a church friend at a clinic, and with many asians, pride is one of the most important thing in life. Not wanting to lose face or have that church friend spread rumors of her abortion she decides to keep the baby. Or she can simply be just SCARED of the procedures and changed her mind. But of course the believer would see it as a sign from god.
Anyways, this was an interesting conversation with you both. It's eye opening if not anything else. And once again I don't hate xtians. I believe I am actually more compassionate than most xtians and I too like Dan want to better humanity but I don't think it should rely on religion. Oh and Dan, you said I behave just like some of them......may I remind you of Atheism 2.0, the video you very much agreed with. That's all I'm trying to do. Not very good at it yet as you can tell....but I will slowly refine my ways. But at least you can't call me an angry atheist. LOL Have a good nite boys!
We are on different pages of different books. I am aware of the existence of this problem, but that is not the point kdot and I are trying to bring to your attention. I am not denying this problem. I am addressing a different issue, that in which you deem it fit to tell what people should and should not believe.
My choice of words might have been misunderstood, however I can assure you that the assumptions you think I made are not as you make it seem to be.
Here it is, short and blunt: Though we share the same praise of scientific research, that is the only similarity we share. You seem to have a sense of "I am right, you are wrong", by being armed with scientific research. My point is that it doesn't matter what the beliefs are, you are behaving no differently than Christians. You are more similar to the Christians, more than you may think.
Christians bullied you, now you bully them back. Your actions are no better than them, no matter how correct your beliefs may be. I'm sorry you don't see that. And it's truly a shame many Atheists have this sense of righteousness, when in fact they behave no differently than their counterparts. Equipped with the knowledge of science, your egos have exploded enormously, which is the one thing that makes you guys fail to see your own fault. Human ego is an interesting thing. It does nothing but make one feel bigger than he or she really is, while closing the ability to learn new things and be open minded about new things. Quite sad I might add.
Try and find your humility back, because it's missing. I'm trying to retain my own humility by restraining myself in my replies, but it seems futile at this point. Congratulations, you've even managed to stir up a fellow atheist's attempt at self-control of negative human nature.
Dan, do you read your owe posts? you too have that "I am right, you are wrong" attitude. I've explained myself many times about my position and yet you still insist that I am bullying xtians. I never expect what I post would change one's believe nor do I tell what people should and should not believe in. I provide information, it's up to the viewers to decide what's right and what's wrong and if they are willing to go find the truth good for them. What part of I lived the life of a xitian, I have xitian friends, I have xtian family members and that I love them as much as they love me you don't understand? What part of the negativity about xtians and their behavior that I pointed out is not worth fighting for? I don't hate xtians! I give credit and respect to those who deserve it xtians or not, and I resent those who corrupt our society and brain wash our children. Just because I post a video with facts and contradiction of the bible I am attacking them? So we should all just keep quiet and let them continue their ways? We should continue to allow Islam extremist behead those who don't believe in Allah and say nothing because if we do we would be attacking them and disrespecting their believes? You are right we are different pages of a different book. But that's the beauty of this world we all have different views, different believes, different ways of life.
In short and blunt: I'm sorry that I don't meet your standards as a fellow human being and my pages are not as crisp as in your book. I'm just an old novel while you have the book of life. Your book is right and my book is wrong. You win. You are right and I am wrong.
Lol you and I both know that last paragraph of yours isn't true.
I agree with your point of view regarding extremists, but your previous post was the first and only one that referred to 'extremist'. The connotation of your prior posts before that inferred the inclusion of all "xtians", all believers, not strictly the ones who "corrupt our society and brainwash our children".
I was attempting to defend the subset of believers who do not fall under the ones who "corrupt our society and brainwash our children", because I believe they have the right to choose what they believe in, without being coerced by either side (Christians or Atheist). And unfortunately, I feel like your post included a sense of coercion.
In Canada's Charters of Rights and Freedom, we have a fundamental freedom:
This freedom dictates that one may believe in their religion FREELY. In your situation with the kids, when you said "I started to point out things in the bible like the stuff in the video", you have basically infringe upon their freedom of thought and belief. Your questioning of their belief is an infringement upon our fundamental right of religion, regardless of how misguided we think their religion might be. It is not your responsibility, nor mine for that matter, to tell people what they should see or view. They have the right to believe what they want. Who are you to question what they believe in, or seed the grain of questioning their beliefs? The only people you can do this to is you, and your kids. Not complete strangers.
Now since you don't live in Canada, you probably don't care about what the Canadian Rights states. The reason why I seem so enthused (for lack of a better term) in this thread is because you've violated the right my country believes in.
Anyway, I should take my own advice. I respectfully disagree with your actions and approach, and I will take a step back. It's been fun.
I stand by my post that ALL xtians should watch this. And where is my rights? Why is it ok for religious people to come knocking on my door handing me pamphlets about their god and telling me I will go to hell if I don't follow their god? Why is it ok for religious people to govern the way gay people live and denied their constitutional rights and where are the women's rights in what they can to do with their own body? What happen to separations between church and state? What's the difference for those kids that I talked to for them to go up to strangers and preach the good book? Who are they to tell what others should believe in? You are so one sided and it is sad you don't see that. But that's because my last paragraph is true because you do think you are right and have a better understanding of life.
But it's ok, atheist can be good people and I like to think I'm one of them. So hopefully there's no hard feelings and we can continue with other topics in the future.
edit: Oh btw, I didn't violate your country's right. This the internet and there's a thing called Freedom of speech and not to mention, your Canadian rights should apply to me too. I should have the freedom of all those things listed as well!
See....you ARE targeting all Christians and believe ALL Christians are hurting the society but in fact only a part of the churches and their members do. You are still basing on the negative things you see and not talking about the good things Christians do to the society
Christians try to change others but you have the option to deny them or simply not agree with them. What about Atheists who talk down and cursing different religions, do you think that is ethical? This is the same as a regular protest. It is freedom of speech.
He said his mother almost aborted him because she believed he was an accident and she was not capable of raising another child by herself. When she met the doctor from her church, she realizes what she is doing wrong and that is how Christianity works. There are people you meet and you realize it is God's calling. Please do not assume when you do not know the real story, you don't know how a woman feels when abortion goes through their heads. If Jaeson believes his birth was a sign of God in the first place then he would not be such a rebel and do all the things he did in the past, he had an encounter with God and that is when he realizes his fate. A lot of people turn to God when they reach the bottom and get caught with authority, some change and some just go back to their old ways. Jaeson realizes that what he did was wrong and that everything clicked from the abortion to him turning himself in and not going to prison. I am basing these facts from what I gathered from his preachings.