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Banker's secret documents scandalise Vatican

Discussion in 'Philosophy & Religion' started by Dan, Jun 11, 2012.

  1. Dan

    Dan Wtf are you doi-....

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    source: http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/bankers-secret-documents-scandalise-vatican-3132324.html

    Incredible. I can't say I'm surprised, because the Vatican, as with other organizations, have some level of corruption in their institutions. But this sounds like material that could seriously flip the Vatican upside down, and Christianity as a whole.
     
  2. Loner

    Loner Member

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    They were not corrupted at all. Their religion functions on betrayal and A violent nature.One doesn't need to go any further than the bible and history to see that their religion is based off hate.

    As far as the old testament and what it teaches... EVEN WORSE! I don't know why they needed to revise it and put a new testament out either. Was it because people were starting to think on their own and say that what God teaches is wrong? lol..sorry to take this topic out of context.
     
  3. ralphrepo

    ralphrepo Active Member

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    Nah, not hate, but obedience, vengeance, retribution, and that's just from the stories that were considered safe enough to be selectively included into the mainstream version of the Bible that we know today. Various other writings from the total collection of scripture, which never made it into the finalized version of the new testament, would scare the bejesus out of most Christians.



     
  4. CrazyMoFo

    CrazyMoFo Member

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    Thanks for sharing the videos. Very interesting stuff! More ammo for me when debating the religious. LOL
     
  5. Dan

    Dan Wtf are you doi-....

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    Your only evidence for "hate", "betrayal" and "violence" is the Bible.

    Have you maybe stopped to think that the Bible has undergone tens of thousands of iterations?

    To put Ralph's post in Layman's terms: political organizations have modified the Bible to use as a tool to control the population. All this "hate", "betrayal" and "violence" could have been inserted to control the population.

    I didn't post this in order to replenish your ammunition. I posted this in order to stem the discussion on how anything with such a large user base as religion can be corrupted and made to gain power.
     
  6. CrazyMoFo

    CrazyMoFo Member

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    I was referring to Ralph's video post. Non the less it's still ammo!
     
  7. Loner

    Loner Member

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    The bible itself is the word of God as stated by christians. Since it teaches hate, violence, and betrayal, it's quite obvious that this religion uses those a basis. Even the supreme being is of that nature. You say the evidence comes from the bible? No it doesn't JUST come from the bible. look at historic events that were done in the name of god. The inquisitions to name one.

    I don't know why people like to pretend it's not there and their not hateful. It's not trying to ignore the elephant in the room
     
  8. Dan

    Dan Wtf are you doi-....

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    I'm not saying it's not there. You see it as the elephant in the room, I see it as a huge image of the elephant on the wall in the room.

    My point is this. You're argument is that Christianity is flawed by design, the original design, and point to examples as quoted in the Bible, and history. My counter-argument is that the Bible is a product of heresy, injected with concepts that promote hate, betrayal and violence. Furthermore, historical events recorded list events based on people's misinterpretation and manipulation of the doctrine.

    I don't deny that Christianity could be hateful, betrayal and violent by initial design. I'm saying the evidence you used to support this statement is inaccurate, because the Bible is heresy, and people's interpretation of this religion is not valid as evidence.
     
  9. kdotc

    kdotc 안녕하세요빅뱅K-Dragon입니다

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    when large sums of money are involved this is bound to happen and being just out of Italy, Mafia comes into play.
     
  10. Dan

    Dan Wtf are you doi-....

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    The root of all of our problems.
     
  11. blkperc

    blkperc Member

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    We must recognize that the Catholic Church is filled with sinners, and that there is a human element within the church.

    However, without further investigation, is the information from the former head credible? Vatican Bank had many troubles these past years, we cannot make judgements until everything is exposed. There was an article early this year that stated that Cardinal Bertone expressed that the Pope Benedict XVI will be assassinated soon. Am I saying that there has never been corruption within the Church before? No. There has been number of disobedient popes and clergymen in the past, who have tried to turn the Church upside down before, for example the abuse scandal. I believe that at the end of the day, the Church will still stand no matter how harsh the conditions may be.
     
  12. Dan

    Dan Wtf are you doi-....

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    And that's the unfortunate example of the expression "The strong will survive".
     
  13. ralphrepo

    ralphrepo Active Member

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    Agreed. Whether one is democrat, republican, communist, tory, christian, muslim, jew, rosicrucian, vegan or whatever stripe one aligns oneself to, belief is something that is powerful and there will always be individual or groups with agendas that desire to capture those beliefs for its own purposes. Rebellions and revolutions (both political and armed) occur for a variety of reasons, but their driving force has always been a contemporaneous massing of like minded people. One can say the Taiping Civil War in China happened because of one crazed religious lunatic (who claimed to be the brother of Jesus and God's second son); but it was that crazed lunatic that preyed on the hopes and fears of millions, and using their emotions galvanized a revolt that ultimately cost upwards of 30 million lives (some estimates as high as 80 million). I know that this is a rather simplistic view, but the truth within pervades every religion, uprising, war, or election. One could sarcastically say that even the bible itself, in essence is one big long running ad campaign used to sway the masses to perform one's wishes. Mao's Little Red Book and Hitler's Mein Kampf tried to do exactly the same thing, using the fears of man, especially during times of want or unrest, to stir a populace towards an agenda or goal.

    Interestingly enough, many Christians (and I know many family members who are devout, almost to a fault) feel that the bible (as published today) was the product of perpetual divine guidance; that the writings within aren't the words of man or subject to human error or fraility; that god himself takes over the hand whenever a man writes anything within the Bible. Thus, even as the finished tome is a product made from man's hands, it was and will always be divinely directed and as such, will always remain the true word of god. That being said, there are people who have come to criticize the bible for being a book that expresses not just hate, violence, or betrayal, but also of divine retribution (as in vengeance is mine) if one does not toe the line.

    Your observation of historic events being done "...in the name of god" is important. Throughout man's existence, one rarely ever rises to the level of power to claim the right to control others (unless by royal primogeniture or presidential election) hence, one can never ever be the boss. However, there are many who would be happy just to be the bosses' tool; to deliver the word from the boss which then causes others to follow their desires. Or, better yet, to be the weapon which the boss wields and to deliver his wrath. In other words, I'm not telling you to do anything, god is; I'm not chopping your head off, god is; I'm not burning your village to the ground, god is. Hence, under the color of religion or politics; sub rosa agendas now have a perfect blameless weapon to wield. Man as such, pretends to be answering a higher calling but is only involved in activity to better or enrich himself. One classic example of this was how Mao used the Cultural Revolution, to blame national failures on those who were "not loyal enough" to the communist ethic. In truth, it was his shrewd political survival method of killing off his enemies within the party who were openly criticizing his poor leadership that caused millions of Chinese to die of starvation. Thus, Mao used the 'religion' of communism to hone the people's angst into a weapon for his own political purposes.

    IMHO, Money is the currency, and power is the weapon, but control has always been the motivation. That is, the first (currency) allows collection of the second (power), but the third (control) is the itch that needs to be perpetually scratched. Speaking of which, where's my remote...? ;)
     
  14. Dan

    Dan Wtf are you doi-....

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    Interesting observation. We agree that 'control' is the goal. But the means, if I understand you correctly, is 'currency' and 'power'. Without these two, 'control' cannot be acquired (or more difficult to acquire). Also, 'power' is acquired through the control of 'currency'. Whoever controls the flow of cash, controls the power.

    So, the triangle would look something like: currency -> power -> control -> currency

    If you remove currency, you remove power, and thus you remove control.

    However this in and of itself is also a naive and utopian belief, because money serves as motivation for productivity. Currency is a double-edged sword. If a society can replace the monetary motivation with a more productive and less harmful motivation, we'd be in better shape.

    In the Star Trek utopia, monetary value is replaced with the value of social betterment. However this is a daunting task for us, considering that would require a total overhaul of our human nature (greed, hunger for power, non-compassion).
     
  15. ralphrepo

    ralphrepo Active Member

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    You're starting to sound like a communist, LOL...
     
  16. Dan

    Dan Wtf are you doi-....

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    LOL. I need to point out that due to today's media, communism is linked with, and is thus synonymous with negativity, such as N. Korea etc.

    However, Communism is simply an ideology, not referring to a group of individuals who use this ideology to control the people. I am referring to communism as an ideology, not communist parties. Before you guys go "WTF THIS GUY IS SUPPORTING COMMIES", let me prove my point.

    Communism has three main characteristics: moneyless, classless, common ownership.

    Removing money removes power, and thus control. (This was what I was saying regarding Ralph's post)
    Removing classes removes segregation and tension between those of higher and lower socio-economic classes (Nice, but I disagree with this and I'll explain later).
    If money is removed, then there must be motivation. Attributing ownership to the public has the goal of making the population work for the betterment of the society. (Though in a Utopia this is a good characteristics, I think we're not capable of this now).

    All of these characteristics are great in a utopian society. However we're not in a utopian society, so conforming to the rules of Communism causes more harm than good (i.e. N. Korea).

    Since we live in a capitalist society, it's much more productive to conform to the rules of capitalism (obviously).

    Money provides motivation for productivity.
    Social classes serve as motivation for further productivity. To gain a higher social status means to gain a higher education, higher wealth/income, and thus higher health benefits.
    Private ownership of our achievements ensures that the owner is compensated and rewarded for the work he has done, and thus promotes further productivity.

    But all of this has monetary value as the main source of motivation. And as you said, money, power and control go hand in hand.

    I feel like I'm abusing the Star Trek analogy again, but that was the utopia in the mind of Gene Roddenberry. That utopia was an example of a world where communism works. Currency is banished, no segregation between social classes and the motivation is the betterment of the society. Again, I iterate that this is a utopian world, and our current world, with our current population is not capable of running this ideology effectively, without being subjected to the influence of greed, power and control.

    I think it's needless to say, but just in case it's not clear to other readers: I am not in support of communism as conducted by the USSR, N. Korea, Vietnam etc lol. They use this ideology as a means of control of the population.
     
  17. ralphrepo

    ralphrepo Active Member

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    The idea of an Utopian society vis a vis communism is actually a great idea, but sadly that theory when practiced, failed to account for the inherent frailties of human nature. The only thing that can perhaps withstand such ideals is mathematics as numbers will always remain faithful. People, on the other hand, tend to be a lot more problematic.

    Having said that, here's something to stir the mix:



    One may be dismissive about the idea of aliens, but please watch it through to the end. It is very illuminating (especially about the Circumcellion and Thuggee), not only about history, but on religion, faith, and beliefs.
     
  18. Dan

    Dan Wtf are you doi-....

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    I absolutely concur.

    Thanks for the video. I'm going to have to find some time today to watch this. (My convocation is in 2 hours and here I am at my desk preferring to chat about philosophy lmao)
     

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